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number of riders per group at nationals
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TOPIC: number of riders per group at nationals

number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 2 months ago #365

  • wezee
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How many riders do they take per group to nationals? Could you please post it thanks.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 2 months ago #367

  • joncasson
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Hi Wezee-

We calculate the number of available slots for each group at Nationals based on the size of the group across the US during the season. Jason and I are working on those numbers right now and will publish initial slot numbers in the next few days. Please keep in mind that many regional series are only halfway through their competition schedules, so our total numbers for each groups are not 100% accurate. Once initial slots are established we may make some adjustments if there are significant changes in those total numbers. Thanks for the inquiry and check back for those slots in a few days.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #369

  • tlumpkin
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any idea when the " few days " will be ??? thanks in advance

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #370

  • joncasson
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I was hoping to have them done by end of this week, but a personal emergency took me out of the office a couple of days this week. I still hope to be able to post tomorrow, but it might not be til Monday or Tuesday. It's a lot of manual data compilation and entry- thanks for your patience.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #372

Any idea on how many will be invited for Jr Men's SS and when invites will be out. My nephew qualified last year but broke his a bone before we got there. This year he is in 2nd place rather than 1st so I was wondering when we might find out if he will be able to participate this year.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #373

  • joncasson
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Hi Mary-

Nationals slots are determined by a sliding scale of percentages based on the total number of riders in USASA who competed in that age group/discipline. Last year, there were 60 slots available for Junior Men's Slopestyle and the lowest ranking invited rider was 78th.

We're currently working on compiling all the data we need to determine this year's slot allocations. I hope to have them completed by the end of the week. I apologize for the delay, but please understand that it is a huge amount of data to sort through and calculate. They will be posted on this website as soon as we finish them.

Invites will go out after the last Regional Series events are concluded on March 14th- although some invites for Regional Series Winners or Pre-Qualified riders may go out sooner.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #379

Thanks that info was very helpful.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #380

  • tlumpkin
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quote---jon casson afer the 2008 nationals---" Never count on getting invited to nationals unless you win your series "----maybe you better check your riders position before you start making plans---my family has been down this road before and you should be very careful before you start spending $$$ on this---you will be very fortunate to get the rider invite numbers before 03/15

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #385

  • joncasson
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Mr. Lumpkin is correct- the only guaranteed means for a Nationals Invite is to win your regional series. All regional series set their own criteria to determine their series winners. If you have questions about your series- please contact your series director.

If you do not win your regional series, you can still be invited to USASA Nationals through our National Rankings. Any available slots not taken by Regional Series winners or previous year's National Champions will be awarded to the next highest ranking rider(s) in the National Rankings. For example, If there are 50 available slots in a given discipline/divisio and there are 23 Regional Series winners plus 1 previous National Champion- the remaining 26 slots will be awarded to the next highest ranking athletes on the National Ranking for that discipline/division. As spots are accepted or declined, spots may hand down the ranking list until the available slots are full.

Nationals slots numbers by discipline, gender and division have been calculated and are now posted on the 2010 Nationals page of the USASA website. Thanks for your patience and please let me know if you have any questions about the process.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #386

  • tlumpkin
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thanks for rider invite numbers !!!! much easier to plan with these numbers available now-----STOKED

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #391

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i am 2nd in southern VT for BX skier 10-12 so if the first place finisher cant go to nationals am i quaIified for nationals and when will i find out if i made nationals via national ranking????

HELP

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years, 1 month ago #392

  • joncasson
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Hi Dags-

First of all, each Series gets to award a Nationals slot to their regional series winner in each discipline (SBX, HP, etc..) and division (skier boys 10-12, menehune girls, etc). They can also name the 2nd place finisher as an alternate if the 1st place series winner cannot attend Nationals. If the alternate cannot attend, then that spot is forfeited and goes to the National Ranking pool.

For the National Rankings, USASA simply goes down the line and invites members according to their rank until all Nationals slots are full. Invitations from the National Ranking will go out the week of March 15th after all regional series have completed their events for the season. Once an invite is sent out- the rider has a set period of time to accept or decline. If declined, an invite is then handed to the next person in the National Rankings.

Okay, so you are Skier Boys 10-12. In SkiX, you are currently ranked 2nd in your region and 14th in the National Rankings. If the 1st place finisher in your region cant attend, your series director can give you that spot. If he does attend, you need an invite through National Rankings. There are 30 available SkiX slots for Skier Boys 10-12 at Nationals. While you may move down a few slots as other regional series complete their events for the season, you probably stand a pretty good chance of getting in. BUT- as pointed out above- there is no GUARANTEE unless you are the series winner. Im afraid you'll just have to hang in there until invites start going out the week of the 15th. I wish I could give you a more definitive answer, but hope fully you have a better understanding of how the system works and can keep an eye on it for yourself. Take it easy and hope to see you in Copper.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #454

I'm concerned that certain age groups seem to have a disproportionately small number of competitors compared to the other age groups. My calculations have shown that the Menehune Boys seem to have less competitor slots in halfpipe than the other age groups. Here are my calculations:
Ruggie Boys: 20 slots/29 nationally ranked competitors = 69%
Grommet Boys: 35 slots/65 nationally ranked competitors = 54%
Menehune Boys: 45 slots/120 nationally ranked competitors = 37%
Breaker Boys: 55 slots/127 nationally ranked competitors = 43%
It seems the Menehune Boys have gotten the shaft when it comes to halfpipe slots - why were the number of slots reduced in comparison to last year, when this is one of the largest age groups? I'd be interested in the basis for the decision to give the Menehune boys such poor representation compared to the other age groups. I seems all the age groups should have an equal percentage of that makes it to Nationals. Based on this will the USASA consider giving the Menehune Boys a few more HP slots?

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #455

  • joncasson
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Boarderadvocate-

Thanks for the question. You can refer to my response to Mary regarding how slots are calculated. It is based on a sliding scale based on the total number of members in each age division who competed in a specific discipline. The overriding factor is the 160 rider per day target we are shooting for to ensure quality events at all of our venues. A few years ago, before we had a National Ranking or specific event caps, we had over 220 kids on a slopestye day. They were on the hill until after 4pm. We felt that this compromised the quality of the event. After talking to all the event TS's, we decided on the 160 number. So, we cannot simply take a set % of riders from every age group, as we would go way over that cap in one group and not come close in the other. Hence the sliding scale. That scale is as follows:
1 - 25 100%
25-50 75%
50-75 60%
75-100 50%
100-150 40%
150-200 30%
200+ 25%

Furthermore, the numbers we use are from mid February. While we are aware that some numbers could change, the alternative is to wait until all Regional Series have finished their events to publish slots - and we feel that isnt the best service to our members, either. The reality is that these numbers did not change significantly.

Ok, so on to your specific example. Lets look at Breaker vs Menehune as they both fall into the 40% category. When we compiled the data, there were 116 Menehune Boys and 125 Breaker Boys. 40% of Menehune is 46 and Breaker is 50. In 2009, we invited 40 Menehune and 55 Breaker. Based on the numbers above, we decided to keep Breaker the same as last year, even though there were less Breakers competing this year.

One other thing to consider- Last year, the lowest ranked competitor in Menehune Boys HP who was invited to Nationals had a ranking of 97th.

Hope this helps clarify your question.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #456

Thanks for the response Jon, but your numbers are off and I don't agree -
Reason #1: In 2009 50 Menehune boys were invited to Halfpipe at Nationals, not 40. You reduced the field by 5 this year.
Reason #2: Regarding the 97th ranked competitor being included in Halfpipe last year, this was a "regional champion" invited from a region with absolutely no competition where anybody can show up 3 times and win. There are a lot of regions where 8+ kids compete in this age category, any of which would beat the "regional champion" from a series with one kid in the age group. This brings to light the fact that USASA's ranking system favors kids from series with very few kids, which is extremely unfair. How to fix this? Here's a suggestion:
USSA and FIS has a quota system for Junior Olympics and National Championships which gives invites to regions based on the performance of their athletes at Junior Olympics the prior year. World Cup Points are calculated and regions which have higher scores get more slots. Regions who don't perform well don't get as many slots. USASA needs to update it's ranking system to invite truly competitive riders, not fill a quarter of the field with unqualified riders who have no competition and therefore always win.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #457

  • jason
boarderadvocate wrote:
There are a lot of regions where 8+ kids compete in this age category, any of which would beat the "regional champion" from a series with one kid in the age group.


You assume a lot when you say this. Until kids from all regions compete against each other it is not possible to know if the kid that happens to be the only one in his age group in a small series is the faster/best kid in his age group Nationally. We (USASA) cannot assume what YOU believe is fact and therefore must invite all Regional Champions to the National Championships. There are MANY times over the years that "the "regional champion" from a series with one kid in the age group" KILLS everyone at Nationals.

Regarding your statement:

This brings to light the fact that USASA's ranking system favors kids from series with very few kids, which is extremely unfair.


Others say it favors kids from series with MORE kids because it awards bonus points for those you beat. A kid in a smaller series will never have the opportunity to earn as many points as a kid from a bigger series.

What is JUST as unfair as your point is penalizing the kid all by himself in his Regional Series just because last years top National athletes don't happen to live in his area. Your suggestion of weighting Regional events by the level of competitors in that Series doesn't work for exactly this reason.

If it was as easy as you make it seem, we would have a perfect system and no one would have any issues but it is NOT that easy.The National Rankings cannot and will never truly compare athletes abilities, ONLY competing against each other at Nationals will ever accomplish that. Before the NR system we used Wildcards, where a Series simply picked who they wanted to go to Nationals. The National Ranking System was created in order to avoid that scenario and have some sort of baseline to compare riders across the country, at least based on points.

USASA needs to update it's ranking system to invite truly competitive riders, not fill a quarter of the field with unqualified riders who have no competition and therefore always win.


Unqualified riders? Louie Vito came out of Ohio. Can you say that because Louie comes from a region where he had small field sizes because of his geographic area (when he competed in USASA) that Louie was an "unqualified rider"?
Last Edit: 4 years ago by .

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #459

Jon and Jason,

I will simply drop this issue, because you are are not hearing what I am saying (which, by the way, is the opinion of most USASA parents and coaches.) If the USASA was truly interested in a fair ranking system, they would use World Cup Points like USSA and use FIS ranking. (For those not familiar with this system, it is used by the US Snowboard Team and most other countries, and is an international ranking system.) How do I know so much about USSA and FIS? Because my daughter is a USSA member and competes internationally and is FIS ranked.
The reason this forum currently has so many hits is because the majority of us think USASA needs to update it's ranking system to something that actually is fair and works. But, we all know that being "grass roots" means being backward, so nothing will change. That's fine, because eventually the better riders will become part of USSA and be FIS ranked anyway. Well, that's my two cents - I have nothing further to say!

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #463

  • jason
I am definitely hearing what you are saying and simply responding with what I have to say. You believe that your opinion is the opinion of " most USASA parents and coaches.", but I disagree. If that were the case then this message board would be flooded with people saying what you are saying, when in fact you are the only one currently.

Directly from the USSA website:

Events that are FIS sanctioned always have age limitations. FIS sanctioning means that all competitors will receive points on the international points and ranking list at www.fisski.com/. FIS sanctioned competitions require a USSA national competitors license and a FIS license. During the 09/10 season, at alpine and snowboardcross events at the FIS level require all entrants to be 15 years of age by Dec. 31, 2009, and 13 years of age for halfpipe events. There are no exceptions to these rules.


Based on your recommendation that we adopt the FIS Ranking System, your child would not even be eligible to compete. We would not have Menehune Boys or any age groups younger than Menehune for Halfpipe events because FIS requires you to be at least 13 years old to compete. And 15 or older for Race events, so no Breaker age group either.

Do you really think we should use a World Cup, International ranking system for Ruggie girls? Legend Women? Or maybe you think we should have one ranking system for all age groups older and younger than Menehune and use the FIS system for Menehune? Not sure how you expect us to adopt a system that does not work for our membership.

"The reason this forum currently has so many hits is because the majority of us think USASA needs to update it's ranking system to something that actually is fair and works."

We have close to 5,000 members in the USASA. If the "majority" were here on the Message Board complaining about our ranking system not being fair, our website would be down constantly (we currently have 96 people accessing the website) and we wouldn't have 1,250 people already registered and confirmed for the 2010 National Championships. But we do, so I believe our system is working pretty darn well.

You really believe Grass Roots means being backward and nothing will change? Maybe USASA is not for you then. Obviously we cannot please every parent.

Bottom line, there may be room for more spots in an age group and the numbers may be adjusted if needed. But telling the USASA on their website Message Board that we are backward and unfair, that kids that win their series with no competition are somehow unworthy or unqualified, etc. is not the appropriate way to handle things. Rather than spending my time looking into the numbers I instead have to respond to accusations and jabs at the organization on our message board.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #464

Jon brought up a comment that caught my attention:

All regional series set their own criteria to determine their series winner

Is this true? Is this stated somewhere in the rule book? So in the event of a series tie (points tie) and the series director reccomends one of the competitors receive the invite...how is the invite determined? Is the series director recommendation overridden by some other rule?

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #465

  • AVC
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That's fine, because eventually the better riders will become part of USSA and be FIS ranked anyway. Well, that's my two cents - I have nothing further to say

Jason this is the first time I've been motivated to post. We're thrilled to be part of this organization, and happy that there seem to be a limited number of parents objectifying and professionalizing their kids, unlike other youth sports organizations. People like this are PRECISELY what we don't need in the USASA. Grass Roots, good vibes, nice kids, good parents. The kids are alright!

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #469

  • jason
For those following this particular topic, the caps for Menehune HP and SS have been increased to 55, based on the final number of athletes in the National Rankings at the end of the season and the total number of competitors for those events.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #471

  • jason
SNOWBOARDMOM, From the USASA Sanctioning Agreement:

Regional Series will establish the same ranking and selection system as the National Office. Regional Series may select their individual discipline winners in any manner that is fair, effective and uses more than one event per discipline. Regional Series must provide to their members and the USASA national office,in writing,their selection criteria for each discipline prior to the first event of the season. Please include a copy of the criteria set forth by your region to qualify individual discipline winners.


Each Series can determine their criteria for their Regional champ themselves meaning they can decide if they want to count the best 2 out of 3 results or the best 3 out of 4 or count all 3 events, etc. to determine their champions. The minimum requirement though is "uses more than one event per discipline".

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #473

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Any chance of a similar bump in Breaker HP? Just another 5, based on similar math? Thanks!

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #474

  • jason
Breaker Boys and Menehune Boys both had roughly the same amount of riders in the National Rankings (120 menehune and 127 breaker) so we went to 55 in Menehune to be equal to Breaker. We will not be increasing the Breaker Boys cap.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #475

Thank you Jason for taking a look at my numbers and adjusting the Menehune Boys halfpipe and slopestyle field size. I take back what I said about you not listening to what I was saying, and I apologize for saying the USASA was backward. I appreciate your being receptive to my input, and while we might not on agree on the merits of USSA and FIS ranking systems I understand that USASA is doing what it believes is right for its membership.
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Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #489

When I asked our Regional Director the status of my son's regional invite I was emailed:

'I listed your son as the series champion based on the second race win. He should receive that spot.'

He did not receive the Regional invite. Is there someone I can raise this with or is it to late? I have been asking these questions (not on the forum) for over week but have not received any helpful feedback.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #490

  • jason
Hard to answer without knowing who you are talking about. Who is the rider in question?

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #491

Competitor is Zach Siegel (11034), Grommet Boys-SW Colorado Series, Boardercross.

Thanks,
Last Edit: 4 years ago by SNOWBOARDMOM.

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #493

You are entirely correct that your son is the regional champion based on the "winner of the second race breaks the tie" rule. (My son was in the same position a couple of years ago.) Look at the invites page - your son has an invite! Good luck at Nationals!

Re:number of riders per group at nationals 4 years ago #494

Thank you soooo much for your help! We'll be there!
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